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	<title>Comments on: How can a naturalist emerge in Paganism?</title>
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	<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/</link>
	<description>Ancient Paganism and modern science</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 13:28:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Saturday Musings &#124; musings of a kitchen witch</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-4940</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Saturday Musings &#124; musings of a kitchen witch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 May 2013 01:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-4940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] This week&#8217;s recommended (Pagan blog) reading: By Candlelight: Celebratory Ritual (blog post) How Persephone Killed the Gods for Me (blog post) How Can a Naturalist Emerge in Paganism? (blog post) [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] This week&#8217;s recommended (Pagan blog) reading: By Candlelight: Celebratory Ritual (blog post) How Persephone Killed the Gods for Me (blog post) How Can a Naturalist Emerge in Paganism? (blog post) [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: John Halstead</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2837</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Halstead]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m glad to hear that.  I wonder how many evangelicals would be so open minded.  How do you think the two compare?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to hear that.  I wonder how many evangelicals would be so open minded.  How do you think the two compare?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Henderson</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2836</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rob Henderson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2836</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a polytheist and I&#039;m fine with the comparison.  &gt;8)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a polytheist and I&#8217;m fine with the comparison.  &gt;8)</p>
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		<title>By: John Halstead</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2835</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Halstead]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2835</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I heard Luhrmann interviewed on NPR about her new book and I found most interesting her discussion of evangelicals having coffee with Jesus -- literally setting a place and pouring coffee for him.  My mind went immediately to polytheists making offerings to the gods.  Although neither side would appreciate the comparison, I think there are some interesting similarities there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard Luhrmann interviewed on NPR about her new book and I found most interesting her discussion of evangelicals having coffee with Jesus &#8212; literally setting a place and pouring coffee for him.  My mind went immediately to polytheists making offerings to the gods.  Although neither side would appreciate the comparison, I think there are some interesting similarities there.</p>
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		<title>By: Rua Lupa</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2828</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rua Lupa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2828</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my experience those who are naturalists and those who are polytheists are often found under the same umbrella term of Paganism mostly due to a love of nature that is expressed through symbolism and ritual each expressing this love in their own way. In my mind, its that plain and simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experience those who are naturalists and those who are polytheists are often found under the same umbrella term of Paganism mostly due to a love of nature that is expressed through symbolism and ritual each expressing this love in their own way. In my mind, its that plain and simple.</p>
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		<title>By: B. T. Newberg</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2827</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B. T. Newberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2012 01:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;But in some ways faith has a deeper tone.

I agree, it does.  And that is exactly the same reason why I stick by words like &quot;gods&quot;, &quot;spirit&quot;, and &quot;religion.&quot;

It&#039;s a partly arbitrary decision on my part to not include &quot;faith&quot; as well.  I do have reasons for that decision (namely, I think &quot;faith in religion&quot; and &quot;faith in science&quot; gives too much of an impression of a level playing field, like the evidence for the one is as good as for the other, and it&#039;s just a matter of which you choose to have &quot;faith&quot; in), but there are good reasons to try to reclaim &quot;faith&quot; as well.  

A person&#039;s got to choose their battles, and I&#039;ve decided I can do without &quot;faith&quot;, but I see your point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;But in some ways faith has a deeper tone.</p>
<p>I agree, it does.  And that is exactly the same reason why I stick by words like &#8220;gods&#8221;, &#8220;spirit&#8221;, and &#8220;religion.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a partly arbitrary decision on my part to not include &#8220;faith&#8221; as well.  I do have reasons for that decision (namely, I think &#8220;faith in religion&#8221; and &#8220;faith in science&#8221; gives too much of an impression of a level playing field, like the evidence for the one is as good as for the other, and it&#8217;s just a matter of which you choose to have &#8220;faith&#8221; in), but there are good reasons to try to reclaim &#8220;faith&#8221; as well.  </p>
<p>A person&#8217;s got to choose their battles, and I&#8217;ve decided I can do without &#8220;faith&#8221;, but I see your point.</p>
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		<title>By: M. Jay Lee</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M. Jay Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2012 01:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My point is really that faith is a feeling, a hopeful trusting feeling.  This feeling may or may not be justified.  People may or may not be able to come up with good reasons why they have this feeling.  

People like Kierkegaard were reacting to the Enlightenment and the rise of science which weakened the old justifications for faith in God.  I certainly have not studied Kierkegaard, but what I think he and others of his ilk are saying is that cultivating faith, a hopeful trusting relationship with God, is important even if it cannot be justified by reason or evidence.  It is of value in and of itself.  

Faith is a “hot button” word, and because of this I think you are right, we are better off using trust.  But in some ways faith has a deeper tone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is really that faith is a feeling, a hopeful trusting feeling.  This feeling may or may not be justified.  People may or may not be able to come up with good reasons why they have this feeling.  </p>
<p>People like Kierkegaard were reacting to the Enlightenment and the rise of science which weakened the old justifications for faith in God.  I certainly have not studied Kierkegaard, but what I think he and others of his ilk are saying is that cultivating faith, a hopeful trusting relationship with God, is important even if it cannot be justified by reason or evidence.  It is of value in and of itself.  </p>
<p>Faith is a “hot button” word, and because of this I think you are right, we are better off using trust.  But in some ways faith has a deeper tone.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: B. T. Newberg</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B. T. Newberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2012 23:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The argument is about what should count as evidence, then.  Which I think is more or less the same disagreement naturalists generally have with hard polytheists.  It&#039;s not about who&#039;s more intelligent or rational, but about what counts as good evidence.

I totally acknowledge the secular uses of &quot;faith&quot; and can understand a desire to reclaim it.  Personally, though, I&#039;d rather go with trust.

P.S.  It&#039;s certainly not just secularists who have defined faith the way I just did.  Look up Fideism, Kierkegaard, and possibly even Tertullian&#039;s famous phrase &quot;I believe because it is absurd&quot; depending on how you understand the context of what he said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The argument is about what should count as evidence, then.  Which I think is more or less the same disagreement naturalists generally have with hard polytheists.  It&#8217;s not about who&#8217;s more intelligent or rational, but about what counts as good evidence.</p>
<p>I totally acknowledge the secular uses of &#8220;faith&#8221; and can understand a desire to reclaim it.  Personally, though, I&#8217;d rather go with trust.</p>
<p>P.S.  It&#8217;s certainly not just secularists who have defined faith the way I just did.  Look up Fideism, Kierkegaard, and possibly even Tertullian&#8217;s famous phrase &#8220;I believe because it is absurd&#8221; depending on how you understand the context of what he said.</p>
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		<title>By: Editor B</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2821</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Editor B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes. I define faith as fidelity to some past experience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. I define faith as fidelity to some past experience.</p>
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		<title>By: M. Jay Lee</title>
		<link>http://humanisticpaganism.com/2012/08/13/how-can-a-naturalist-emerge-in-paganism/#comment-2820</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M. Jay Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://humanisticpaganism.com/?p=2893#comment-2820</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to say, I strongly disagree.  Faith does not mean believing without evidence.  Faith has been defined this way by secular naturalists as a way of diminishing and dismissing the convictions of conventionally religious people.  Faith means having a hopeful trust.  

When someone says, “I have faith in my spouse/friend”, they mean they have trust in that person.  This trust/faith may be justified based on past experience or not.  When a Christian says they have faith in Jesus or the Bible, they do not mean they believe in Jesus or the Bible despite the fact that there is no evidence.  If you ask a Christian why they have faith they will almost always provide reasons (evidence) such as personal experience and in addition many will site what I would characterize as Christian propaganda (a string of misconstrued “facts” about the Bible).  That we naturalistic types don’t accept their evidence as valid does not mean they don’t believe they have evidence.  I certainly don’t think when pre-Enlightenment folks talked about faith in God they meant they believed without evidence.  In the Middle Ages no doubt many felt the evidence of the providence of God was all around them, undeniably true.  When a Christian says they have faith in Jesus or the Bible, they mean they trust in Jesus, that they trust in the guidance of the Bible.  

Yes faith and trust are largely synonymies and no doubt they have different origins.  The English language is full of words like that.  I think the word faith needs to be reclaimed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say, I strongly disagree.  Faith does not mean believing without evidence.  Faith has been defined this way by secular naturalists as a way of diminishing and dismissing the convictions of conventionally religious people.  Faith means having a hopeful trust.  </p>
<p>When someone says, “I have faith in my spouse/friend”, they mean they have trust in that person.  This trust/faith may be justified based on past experience or not.  When a Christian says they have faith in Jesus or the Bible, they do not mean they believe in Jesus or the Bible despite the fact that there is no evidence.  If you ask a Christian why they have faith they will almost always provide reasons (evidence) such as personal experience and in addition many will site what I would characterize as Christian propaganda (a string of misconstrued “facts” about the Bible).  That we naturalistic types don’t accept their evidence as valid does not mean they don’t believe they have evidence.  I certainly don’t think when pre-Enlightenment folks talked about faith in God they meant they believed without evidence.  In the Middle Ages no doubt many felt the evidence of the providence of God was all around them, undeniably true.  When a Christian says they have faith in Jesus or the Bible, they mean they trust in Jesus, that they trust in the guidance of the Bible.  </p>
<p>Yes faith and trust are largely synonymies and no doubt they have different origins.  The English language is full of words like that.  I think the word faith needs to be reclaimed.</p>
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